Wednesday, May 23, 2007
::Rants-APEST in practice II I must admit, I am wondering if APEST is the best place to start?
Probably the biggest issue is trying to redeem the meanings.
Case in point: Evangelist. "Ah, so this is the person who will (a) lead everyone to Jesus and/or (b) bring everyone into the meeting/gathering."
Al's definitions are helpful, but also quite limited. If you have three people, from three different traditions in the room, well, let's just say that it it is going to be a long afternoon.
Let's not even begin to examine the implications when hierarchical presuppositions are super imposed over the whole process.
Labels are bad. But labels are good. I have always maintained that just because something has created damage in the past, does not necessarily mean you jettison the whole. Redemption is just that. The thing needs to be redeemed.
So, the difficulty in trying to use APEST has let to some confusion regarding definitions (baggage etc) and then the whole idea of a hierarchy within (upon, around, choose your issue) also can complicate matters.
One straight up problem we struck that is worth noting is that people can behave differently in different contexts. For example, in my work with Tear and teaching in theological institutes, I would be received profoundly as Prophetic (no jokes about that being misspelled please!) no if's but's or maybes. So P first then T.
However, in the context of missio Dei, I seem to be received primarily as a T and secondarily as an A. I feel far more comfortable as a P, a little less comfortable as a T, and to be honest, we are having a hard time trying to define what an A is (again, keep your funny comments to yourself!).
I am sure that there will be at least on person who would like to give a go at helping us define what an A is, and I would keen to hear from you, but keep in mind that the reason we are stuck is not lack of information. If anything we are swimming in it. The challenge is sifting the information to find a meaningful definition that honors the biblical and historical tradition, and that makes sense to us today.
Will keep you posted in a few weeks on this one. Will probably post on leadership in the next few days as these two issues seem to be closely intertwined for us.
Probably the biggest issue is trying to redeem the meanings.
Case in point: Evangelist. "Ah, so this is the person who will (a) lead everyone to Jesus and/or (b) bring everyone into the meeting/gathering."
Al's definitions are helpful, but also quite limited. If you have three people, from three different traditions in the room, well, let's just say that it it is going to be a long afternoon.
Let's not even begin to examine the implications when hierarchical presuppositions are super imposed over the whole process.
Labels are bad. But labels are good. I have always maintained that just because something has created damage in the past, does not necessarily mean you jettison the whole. Redemption is just that. The thing needs to be redeemed.
So, the difficulty in trying to use APEST has let to some confusion regarding definitions (baggage etc) and then the whole idea of a hierarchy within (upon, around, choose your issue) also can complicate matters.
One straight up problem we struck that is worth noting is that people can behave differently in different contexts. For example, in my work with Tear and teaching in theological institutes, I would be received profoundly as Prophetic (no jokes about that being misspelled please!) no if's but's or maybes. So P first then T.
However, in the context of missio Dei, I seem to be received primarily as a T and secondarily as an A. I feel far more comfortable as a P, a little less comfortable as a T, and to be honest, we are having a hard time trying to define what an A is (again, keep your funny comments to yourself!).
I am sure that there will be at least on person who would like to give a go at helping us define what an A is, and I would keen to hear from you, but keep in mind that the reason we are stuck is not lack of information. If anything we are swimming in it. The challenge is sifting the information to find a meaningful definition that honors the biblical and historical tradition, and that makes sense to us today.
Will keep you posted in a few weeks on this one. Will probably post on leadership in the next few days as these two issues seem to be closely intertwined for us.
Labels: APEST, Church, Leadership, Mission, Theology
Posted by Stephen @ 11:24 PM Comments:
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Stephen,
I think that maybe you are worrying to much about defining APEST. I mean does it really matter in the scheme of things.
If I was to lable you, I an I only know you from our brief chats over a couple of Capacinco's in South Melb a couple of years ago. You're a teacher/prophet, why, because your teaching style is simple (I don't mean to make that sound like it does, its also very deep. As far as being a prophet you remind me of a modern John the Baptist.
Now for the Apostle, I think they're the ones that have the keys to the doors that God has given them to open. Establishing a work on the otherside of the door, whilst gathering people around them to carry on the work. Then moving on to open another door, and cycle begins again.
Anyway is it that important that we get caught up in the labeling. ANother thought I have is if we receive a label we run the danger of only sticking to that label. Consequently what happens is "Sorry I can't do that my label is this." It happens in mainstream church why wouldn't happen in an emerging faith community like yours.
My guess is, your community know who the leaders are, they know who are the teachers etc. Why not just celebrate each other's giftings and continue in the simplicity of God.
I think that maybe you are worrying to much about defining APEST. I mean does it really matter in the scheme of things.
If I was to lable you, I an I only know you from our brief chats over a couple of Capacinco's in South Melb a couple of years ago. You're a teacher/prophet, why, because your teaching style is simple (I don't mean to make that sound like it does, its also very deep. As far as being a prophet you remind me of a modern John the Baptist.
Now for the Apostle, I think they're the ones that have the keys to the doors that God has given them to open. Establishing a work on the otherside of the door, whilst gathering people around them to carry on the work. Then moving on to open another door, and cycle begins again.
Anyway is it that important that we get caught up in the labeling. ANother thought I have is if we receive a label we run the danger of only sticking to that label. Consequently what happens is "Sorry I can't do that my label is this." It happens in mainstream church why wouldn't happen in an emerging faith community like yours.
My guess is, your community know who the leaders are, they know who are the teachers etc. Why not just celebrate each other's giftings and continue in the simplicity of God.
Tweedle Dee, when did I have a Capacinco with you in South Melbourne? Who is this? Reveal thy self!
Secondly, yes, I do worry.
Thirdly, it is not the label that is the issue, it is the definition. It is important. Let me muse...
We're given words. We're separated from their meanings by a distance of some 2000 years worth of culture and time. They meant something then. They can and should mean something to us now. They are things that will help us organise.
Organisation is important. We have been given a window into the primal organisation of the movement at its very beginning. We will organise one way or another. If we do not take the time and the care to consider this, the shape will be dictated by other things. There is no such thing as a cultural vacuum. (This point is critical and often overlooked).
The meanings to us in the present often are at best vague, and at their worst, damaging. Redeeming these words and their meanings is an opportunity for redemption and liberation.
The words are being flung around regularly, yet the meanings don't quite cut the mustard for where we are at right now.
It is not a fear of getting it wrong or something similar. It is a desire to seize the opportunity to liberate those words in the same way we have in recent years liberated the terms worship and church.
Does this make sense?
Secondly, yes, I do worry.
Thirdly, it is not the label that is the issue, it is the definition. It is important. Let me muse...
We're given words. We're separated from their meanings by a distance of some 2000 years worth of culture and time. They meant something then. They can and should mean something to us now. They are things that will help us organise.
Organisation is important. We have been given a window into the primal organisation of the movement at its very beginning. We will organise one way or another. If we do not take the time and the care to consider this, the shape will be dictated by other things. There is no such thing as a cultural vacuum. (This point is critical and often overlooked).
The meanings to us in the present often are at best vague, and at their worst, damaging. Redeeming these words and their meanings is an opportunity for redemption and liberation.
The words are being flung around regularly, yet the meanings don't quite cut the mustard for where we are at right now.
It is not a fear of getting it wrong or something similar. It is a desire to seize the opportunity to liberate those words in the same way we have in recent years liberated the terms worship and church.
Does this make sense?
Tweedle Dee's post said...
"Now for the Apostle, I think they're the ones that have the keys to the doors that God has given them to open. Establishing a work on the otherside of the door, whilst gathering people around them to carry on the work. Then moving on to open another door, and cycle begins again."
I would like to expand on that. I believe the Apostle is one with the lot APEST Burger. Hmmmm you say please explain...
Well to start a new work you need to gather a team to work with, they need shepherding and teaching. To open the door to a community you have to have prophetic and evangelistc skills. However, they also know when it is time to move on to a new door, Having raised leaders to continue the work they're leaving, e.g. Paul and Timothy. The Apostle does of all this.
They also need to enjoy Capacino's ;)
"Now for the Apostle, I think they're the ones that have the keys to the doors that God has given them to open. Establishing a work on the otherside of the door, whilst gathering people around them to carry on the work. Then moving on to open another door, and cycle begins again."
I would like to expand on that. I believe the Apostle is one with the lot APEST Burger. Hmmmm you say please explain...
Well to start a new work you need to gather a team to work with, they need shepherding and teaching. To open the door to a community you have to have prophetic and evangelistc skills. However, they also know when it is time to move on to a new door, Having raised leaders to continue the work they're leaving, e.g. Paul and Timothy. The Apostle does of all this.
They also need to enjoy Capacino's ;)
# posted by 
: 10:37 PM
: 10:37 PM Supporting your post, I would say that above anything, I am apostolic. I love getting out and getting my hands dirty, conceptualising a new idea and seeing it come to pass. This is what I would call Apostolic.
But, I couldn't use that word amongst others of my denomination. I would be seen as big-noting myself. Apostles are the 'big' men, called to 'break open the heavenlies' - whatever that means. In short, we have one apostle - 'the' apostle.
--
People act in different ways. Some of these ways seem distinctive, so we can put labels on them to help us discuss those characteristics. But as soon as we then try to categorise people using those labels, we have made a grave mistake. People don't fit moulds. We are all created individually.
My advise is use APEPT to understand what aspects of leadership need to happen in a community, but don't force people to fit these roles.
Oh - and a short macchiato for me.
Post a Comment But, I couldn't use that word amongst others of my denomination. I would be seen as big-noting myself. Apostles are the 'big' men, called to 'break open the heavenlies' - whatever that means. In short, we have one apostle - 'the' apostle.
--
People act in different ways. Some of these ways seem distinctive, so we can put labels on them to help us discuss those characteristics. But as soon as we then try to categorise people using those labels, we have made a grave mistake. People don't fit moulds. We are all created individually.
My advise is use APEPT to understand what aspects of leadership need to happen in a community, but don't force people to fit these roles.
Oh - and a short macchiato for me.
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About Me
- Name: Stephen Said
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
National Youth Coordinator with TEAR Australia, I spend most of my time helping Christians come to terms with being Disciples "in" Pop Culture, rather than disciples "of" Pop Culture. In addition, I am part of the leadership team of missio Dei, a faith community based in the north eastern suburbs of Melbourne, I am sessional lecturer with Tabor College Victoria and ACOM, and part of the Forge Mission Training Network's National team. Husband to Lisa and father to Harry.
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